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When will they nerf ECM drones?

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General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2008.04.20 20:01:00 - [1] Edited by: General Coochie on 20/04/2008 20:01:28 5 medium ECM drones jams on average once every 50 seconds for 20seconds on a cruiser. Makes you versatile 1v1 as it means you could bail out, and it can give you the edge IF they work more often then they "should". However if it takes 50sec before first jam, the other guy using dps drones would have popped your ecm drones many times over before that. Also ECCM reduces drones effectiveness by quite a lot. Yeah they are good when you have say 3 cruisers vs one bigger ship. A frig gang attacking your thorax with a mix of ECM themselves? Dps drones would be much much better. I had 1v1 thorax vs thorax, Where I avoided blaster range long enough to pop all his ecm drones. Then after that my drones didn't get a single cycle and he popped all of mine. They pop in like 2 sec so scooping them is impossible. If I had dps drones in that fight would have won even easier. The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie)
General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2008.04.21 08:24:00 - [2] Edited by: General Coochie on 21/04/2008 08:26:00 Edited by: General Coochie on 21/04/2008 08:25:06 Originally by: Corstaad We did some testing last night and there was no noticable difference with the racial ECCM fitted against light ecm drones. Funny thing was mid fight I switched to a old drones overview setting and proceeded to wtf destroy my own drones . So in your testing did you also count the number of jams vs a target? Cause I did today. Thorax vs my alts harbinger (16 sensor strength which is high compared to minmatar cruisers I admit). Test lasted 16min. I used 5 medium ECM drones. Harbinger was fit 7 heavy beam, ab, ship scan, 3 heatsinks, 2 tracking enhancers, 1 DCU II Total cycles: 48 Nr of successful jam cycles: 16 Nr of unsuccessful jam cycles: 32 Time jammed: 320 sec or 5min Time not jammed: 640 sec or 10min. Chance of jam: 16/48 = 1/3 = 33% Or once every minute. Which means that in general you wont get first jam with 5 medium ECM drones until after 40sec. note that EFT lists 5 med ecm drones chance to jam a harbinger to 38.5% fairly accurate indeed. If this was my thorax vs my own thorax fighting, same fitting. DPS ECM drones saved me from during these 16min: 124480 DPS damage drones would have done in these 16min: 151680 So why do I use ECM drones myeslf? Well if I am loosing / cant get close to a nanod target / etc, and get a jam cycle I can warp out. Versatility > DPS But in PvP performance 1v1 dps drones have advantage over ECM drones. Also once dps drones has aggrod ECM drones they go down quick. ECM drones also enables you to have luck and take on targets you otherwise would have lost against. However you can also have bad luck and not get a jam for 2min during that time ure ECM drones should be dead. Now you some might say that ECM drones are superior as it enables say 5 thorax to easy take down a battleship without him locking. Interesting facts then 5 thorax global jam chance against a megathron: 84.3% according to quick fit A blackbirds chance to jam a megathron with 5 multispecs: 88% Switching one rax for a blackbird looses you 530 turret dps if they are fully gank fitted with full skills (unlikely) The 4 thoraxes left uses dps drones and gets 632 more dps. The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie)
General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2008.04.21 09:20:00 - [3] Edited by: General Coochie on 21/04/2008 09:23:49 Originally by: Corstaad You got way to many random eft numbers so I have to disregard that. Like I said to begin this thread I use ECM drones. In fact every ship I have that has a drone bay uses them. I know how to deal with them as well. I'm pointing out that everyone atleast in my corner of low sec uses them. It would be nice to see abit of variety in people loadout lately. Also I try judge things from my seat not pvp videos. Disregard facts and be subjective then. Don't expect anyone to take your whining seriously though. And if EVERYONE uses them, why don't you just fit a smartbomb? 3 cycles (22.5sec) from a medium smartbomb -> medium ECM drones pop. The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie)
General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2008.04.21 10:00:00 - [4] Edited by: General Coochie on 21/04/2008 10:09:28 Edited by: General Coochie on 21/04/2008 10:06:06 Edited by: General Coochie on 21/04/2008 10:02:25 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Corstaad If I fight a Thorax in a Ruppy I know by default if they fit medium ECM drones I will lose the fight. Jamming happens much more then once every 50 secs . Even flying my Hurricane I know that if I find another BC he'll be jammed atleast a 1/3 of the time. Nobody likes to mention ecm drones because its a new Iwin for a small scale fights. Exactly. They are especially overpowered on gun boats with already high inherent gun damage like thorax and harbinger. Those ships with 5xec-600 can rip ** apart without them being able to fight back reasonably. I hope they nerf it soon together with falcons. Or you could view it this way: They only offer an advantage if the ship attacked has more then 474 dps in turrets/misslies. Cause then the damage mitigated through ECM will exceed what you lost not using dps drones. This is against cruiser sized targets. So they are actually more overpowered against high dps ships relying on turrets or missiles for damage then against ships with lower dps, tougher tanks and more drone dps. Originally by:** Corstaad If you rattle of a page of numbers of course I'm going to disregard it. Nobody is going to spend a hour with EFT trying to debunk that. You do realize I provided in game numbers as well? That matched EFT's numbers very accurately. If there is something you don't understand about the numbers feel free to ask. So we have your subjective observations, my observations and a bunch of numbers backing me up. To have a reasonable argument you should try and somehow disprove my numbers if you don't believe them, or tell me why the numbers are irrelevant. Cause you coming to forums whining doesn't prove anything about how overpowered ecm drones are. Some of us like the game when it isn't purely about dps and tanks. I think personally that ECM drones offer a lot more complex battle field. Its not hard to kill them, it takes some time or changing your setup, but with careful piloting and not being unlucky with statistics, you should come out on top against ECM drones atleast half the times in a strict 1v1 environment. The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie)
General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2008.04.21 14:14:00 - [5] Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 21/04/2008 12:40:46 Originally by: Forge Lag If only ECCM modules did something usefull by themselves we would see less nerf ECM threads. And if the other EWAR drones were on par. thread closed. but yes, it's not that ECM drones are overpowered. it's just that the other Ewar drones and ECCM aren't that amazing. dampening drones are meh. neut drones are meh. TD drones are even more meh. TP drones are lulz. there is only one size of webbing drones (heavy). wich makes the ECM drones the only that has real use and impact in comparision with the other drones. add a rather useless ECCM system that offers no benefits beyond increasing the chance of not getting jammed, and there you have it. Agree The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie)
General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2008.04.21 19:52:00 - [6] Edited by: General Coochie on 21/04/2008 19:55:07 Originally by: Corstaad Here is the whole point to why ECM drones suck. I remeber the half a year before NOS got nerf. I also can go back and watch the pvp videos . It wasn't that NOS was op'd it was just to good module not to fit to your extra high slots. Now take ECM drones and normal ships drone bays. The real dps those drones add are kinda crap so everyone loads ecm drones. Thats my point alt #1234 can comment now that I can't fly ships. E-Peen pirate #5432 can tell me to EFT up. In the case of the thorax depending on fitting you consider 30-45% more dps to be crap in all situations? Sorry but you are just pulling arguements out of your ass. Or are you saying that dps drones needs a boost? The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie)
General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2008.04.21 20:20:00 - [7] Originally by: Corstaad Edited by: Corstaad on 21/04/2008 20:05:45 Sorry I'm not pulling stuff out of my arse. I'm actually playing the game not EFTing. You hate for me to mention this because your justified by EFT on why theres nothing wrong with them. Watch a small scale pvp video before the NoS nerf. You see almost every ship had little vampire trails coming off it. Now go to a active low sec system and do a scan for drones. Tell me what you find. 30% to 45% dmg isn't real damage do you understand that. How isn't it real damage? Its more real then any turret due to turrets tracking and falloff. It also works even if you are jammed. If you do 400dps with turrets you think turning down another 150 is always worse then using ECM drones? Its not if you have someone else dedicated to jamming in you gang! You can claim EFT numbers have no relevance as a lot of ppl pull numbers out of their arse and its the a general opinion that EFT has no weight in "real PvP". But it does mate. Give me one good argument why EFT isn't relevant. I don't think you can. All your arguements are based on whinyness and don't bear any weight at all. The reason ppl use them in low sec is that they provide one very important thing that dps drones don't provide. The ability to disengage from a fight at the same time as it gives an dps taken, dps dealt ratio benefit. Well comparing rax turns both ways, it also has higher chance jamming with ECM drones. The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie)
General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2008.04.22 09:14:00 - [8] Originally by: Derek Sigres Originally by: General Coochie Edited by: General Coochie on 21/04/2008 20:35:24 You can claim EFT numbers have no relevance as a lot of ppl pull numbers out of their arse and its the a general opinion that EFT has no weight in "real PvP". But it does mate. Give me one good argument why EFT isn't relevant. I don't think you can. All your arguements are based on whinyness and don't bear any weight at all. EFT carries a degree of weight in an argument. It will tell the story of a ship's inherit capabilities given a certain fitting. But we all know that's only part of the story. Sure a gank bs can pump out 1k or more damage a second but that damage is only useful in a very small radius. The ship's entire success or failure in combat will be based around how well the gank ship pilot can get his BS into range against a webbed target. Lots of arguments are given based on EFT generated stats but we all know EFT generated stats are rarely "realistic" in terms of actual capabilities in the hands of the average pilot of the ship. Thus, many EFT arguments are similar to high-school physics equations where you simply ignore those pesky realities and focus on the specific aspect of a situation you are attempting to measure. Arguments backed by EFT hold very little weight in reality as it simply displays the potential of a ship, and nothing more. Thre are dozens of factors that a pilot must manage in order to keep any ship in it's optimal engagement situation and these are generally more telling than any statistic printout. I agree, and every time someone use EFT you have to take that into consideration. But how is the EFT numbers not relevant here??? I compared the drone dps which is always given as long as you do 4 clicks with you mouse button, right click - release drones - right click - engage target. There you go a guaranteed ~150 dps vs another cruiser (ok maybe a little bit less). When I compared it to turrets I used EFT numbers for turrets and I didn't take into consideration a thorax awful range and falloff and not tracking either I admit. But you know what? That only further points to dps drones giving a ship even a greater dps advantage! So if its 30-50% EFT dps lets make it 50-70% "real" dps considering you might be jammed etc. If I told you, you would have 50-70% more "real" dps would you say "no thats worthless, ecm drones are still always better"?? Cpt Branko's summary of the pros and cons whether to pick ecm/dps drones is most excellent so I quote it again. Quote: ECMs are handy because: (1) They give you a option to disengage in a really bad situation (a very important thing) (2) They're cheap and fairly easy to skill into (3) They are extremely potent vs ships with small sensor str and significant gank power (think some AFs, HACs, stuff of that sort) Damage drones are handy because: (1) Certain ones offer abilities which give you special abilities (warrior IIs for shaking off interceptors). (2) DPS addition can mean more then ECM-ing the target, particularly if you're trying to overpower tanks in as little time as possible. (3) They deal damage even when you are ECM-ed (which can be extremely handy). (4) They can be used for counter-droning. Originally by: Corstaad I'm sorry I like fighting people not drones. So this is really the reason why you don't like ECM drones. Not that they are overpowered. I'm glad we sorted that out. The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie)

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